vBulletin Nightmare

[ptwiggens]

New to this forum... lurked for quite some time, figure now is a good time to join.

I have multiple licenses with vB.

I was very unhappy with both how vB4 as a product turned out, and with how they launched it.

I have been voicing my criticisms for the past few days. They made bannable any post that "distorts" their product for new customers... aka anything that doesn't say what they want.

After they locked a thread that was completely constructive, I made a decision that I would no longer be purchasing anything from vBulletin.

I sat down, took about an hour, and took a lot of care laying out all of the reasons that they had lost me as a customer. I started this by saying that they "had already lost me as a customer, and I won't be coming back." Not said in a way to start drama, but rather to give my post some context and set the tone.

Most of the post was about how I thought vBulletin should fix the disaster that happened. It was a very serious suggestion on how I would like to see them handle it. Mainly, apologizing to the customer base including all of the ones they banned, rolling 4.0 back into 3.9, reverting back to old license structure and selling CMS as separate product, (without my explanations those might seem crazy, but I have very well thought out reasons)... very real suggestions. I also said that I thought their support staff needed to be retrained because a lot of stuff they were posting was very unprofessional, and vBulletin shouldn't allow that. (I had a staff member blatantly insult my intelligence, when I complained, it was that staff member who handled the ticket. I tried to go above him, his superior gave me a non-apology of "Sorry if you misinterpreted anything that was said." That is how I described it in the thread. I couldn't explain it any differently. I did not say any of this in an inflammatory way, it was purely informational and meant to encourage actual change.

The staff member that I mentioned deleted the thread and banned my account after seeing it.

The ban reason should communicate just how bad things have gotten:

"You have been banned for the following reason: We are taking you at your word: You've already lost me as a customer, and I won't be coming back"

In essence, they banned me because I said I was not going to be spending any more money on their software. They also banned me from vb.org which effectively ends my license, as I cannot receive updates, plugins, support (oh, did I mention since they banned me they won't reply to support tickets?)... basically, I am going to be forced to switch to another software despite having an active license that is fully paid.

To be honest, I am in disbelief. I don't really even know what to say about it. I've literally never in my life seen a company act like this before.

(Despite the negative content of this post... I want to add that I'm glad to join the ranks here on adminaddict and looking forward to spending time here!

[Nick]

They seem to be taking a lot of people at their word...

I'm sorry to hear that you're having this trouble with them. You aren't the first one. In fact, we have a case that is extremely similar to yours, here: http://www.adminaddict.net/forum/vbu...-do-next-4424/ Might want to check that out.

[Mark.B]

Yes this is exactly what they've done to me.

I'll know more later on when the ticket I've raised gets picked up...I guess it's the middle of the night for them at the moment.

[kevin]

The people at vbulletin can control what is posted in their forums, but they can not control what happens off their site.

I have seen some vbulletin hate/dislike blogs - you might want to consider going that route. Get a domain name, install wordpress, and start blogging about the issue. I would also suggest opening a youtube channel and start video blogging about the topic. You should be able to tap into a large market at youtube.

I personally am not happy with the way the managers at jelsoft are handling this vb4 issue. But I can not say "I will never buy another vb product." So far the service, support and value for the dollar has been good.

Most of the times companies make these big changes after merging, being bought, or hiring some new marketing people or some new managers. The new people come in with all kinds of big ideas and change stuff up rather fast. Its the long run and the big picture that is important.

Will these chagnes make vbulletin a better product 1 - 2 years down the road? I think so.

[p4guru]

Originally Posted by ptwiggens

New to this forum... lurked for quite some time, figure now is a good time to join.

I have multiple licenses with vB.

I was very unhappy with both how vB4 as a product turned out, and with how they launched it.

I have been voicing my criticisms for the past few days. They made bannable any post that "distorts" their product for new customers... aka anything that doesn't say what they want.

After they locked a thread that was completely constructive, I made a decision that I would no longer be purchasing anything from vBulletin.

I sat down, took about an hour, and took a lot of care laying out all of the reasons that they had lost me as a customer. I started this by saying that they "had already lost me as a customer, and I won't be coming back." Not said in a way to start drama, but rather to give my post some context and set the tone.

To be honest, I am in disbelief. I don't really even know what to say about it. I've literally never in my life seen a company act like this before.

(Despite the negative content of this post... I want to add that I'm glad to join the ranks here on adminaddict and looking forward to spending time here!

And you wonder why you were banned ?

There's a difference between genuine feedback/suggestions or complaints versus taking any and every opportunity to influence and effect their sales via negative comments (customers directly who read their forums). Although there's a fine line between the 2 due to the nature of complaints.

You can see it from any business' perspective really. Imagine if you went into a supermarket and bought some bread and it was more expensive then the no-frills kind and you didn't like the taste. So you camp out in the check out isle of the supermarket and start shouting at all the customers at checkout counter "Don't buy this bread from this supermarket it's too expensive, I'm not buying from this supermarket anymore UNLESS the drop the price".

What would you think would happen ? Security guard will escort you off the premises. Now come back again and repeat same action again a few more times and you'd probably get yourself blacklisted from the place.

Now do the same action off their premises and you'd be fine as some folks above have mentioned.

I can agree that IB management have handled some of this poorly and the manner in which you were banned probably not the best (although you would of got banned anyway). Best way they could of addressed your feedback would of been to say thanks for your feedback, BUT sorry your suggestions won't change the new price/policies which have been implemented.

Such a response probably won't stop most of the unhappy folks from repeating the same emotional fed feedback, suggestions and sometimes just general rants.

Just my 2.5 cents after taking a step back to look at things.

[banger]

I've done some testing and found that Invision Power Board is a much more refined and effective in several areas than vBulletin. I decided not to share with the folks at vB my opinion why I think that vb4 has some steps in the wrong direction. I have many years building social networking and community sites. They don't want to hear my opinion, that's fine, and I'm certainly not contributing it in exchange for paying a ridiculous presale fee on every one of our licenses.

I never thought I'd see the day where I'd consider moving forums but we're doing that with some sites to various forums, some GPL open source. While there are some parts that could use a little work, overall Invision Power Board is just a much better product moving forward and at least we can grow it over the next 4-6 months, when vb4 wont be out in any usable form. From a technical standpoint, it doesn't make a difference moving to vbulletin 4 than it does to IPB so long as the posts and other information import properly. This is mostly psychological and so far so good.

What happens at vBulletin in 2 years from now is not my concern. I care about what happens to my sites and this delay and about face in direction is a negative impact on development. This affair is a disaster but they don't care. They believe they have enough money and will eventually have a good enough product to survive with people too scared to leave the product. The problem with you theory about change is that vb4 represents a significant evolution of the product and this was a very poor time to impose your fixes on something that wasn't necessarily broken.

[ptwiggens]

Originally Posted by p4guru

There's a difference between genuine feedback/suggestions or complaints versus taking any and every opportunity to influence and effect their sales via negative comments (customers directly who read their forums). Although there's a fine line between the 2 due to the nature of complaints.

Yeah... that would make sense... if the thread that got me banned had been posted in the public forum. It wasn't.

Additionally, this isn't a supermarket. If I don't like one supermarket, I can go up the street to another. There aren't 50 companies with quality software like vbulletin. There are 2.

Also, I obviously have a lot more invested than someone going to the grocery. And for people who make money off their site... you don't think it hurts profit to have an extremely poor designed UI?

[mrgtb]

Posting about vBulletin on another public site, doesn't mean vBulletin wouldn't decide to still ban you and give you a full refund back to no longer use their software. I've posted a few articles about them on my site about the way things are right now. But I'm not stupid enough to think I could visit vBulletin one day and see a (you've been banned) message in my face.

[Wayne Luke]

Originally Posted by ptwiggens

Yeah... that would make sense... if the thread that got me banned had been posted in the public forum. It wasn't.

To tell you the truth, it wasn't what you posted that got you banned. It was how you posted it and repeated things over and over across the site in general. Your banning may be attributed to one single post because that is how the infraction system works. However that post would have been the proverbial straw.

We don't like banning people and we would rather not do it. We have posted numerous warnings, contacted people (I don't know if this includes you specifically) and so forth. Banning is always see as the last futile step in any situation.

[ptwiggens]

Originally Posted by Wayne Luke

To tell you the truth, it wasn't what you posted that got you banned. It was how you posted it and repeated things over and over across the site in general. Your banning may be attributed to one single post because that is how the infraction system works. However that post would have been the proverbial straw.

We don't like banning people and we would rather not do it. We have posted numerous warnings, contacted people (I don't know if this includes you specifically) and so forth. Banning is always see as the last futile step in any situation.

Okay... assuming that's true, which I wouldn't say it is, shouldn't I at least have been told to stop, or given an infraction or warned before being banned? You would think the process of "Last futile step" would include any of those things. Staff never said a word about anything.

And why was license deactivated on vb.org? What is the purpose of this?

[mrgtb]

Okay... assuming that's true, which I wouldn't say it is, shouldn't I at least have been told to stop, or given an infraction or warned before being banned?

And why was license deactivated on vb.org? What is the purpose of this?

You wasn't given a warning because IB want to get shut of people they see as losing them sales, and fast! I would say Wayne's a nice guy who will give you plenty of breathing space before banning, just like Steve also. But the truth of the matter is. IB are the ones pulling their puppet strings. If they say jump, they jump and do it their way - unless they don't want another pay cheque heading their way from IB in their letter box!

Sounds harsh, but that's the reality of it. Wayne and Steve may be holding the gun, but IB are pulling the trigger.

[Wayne Luke]

Originally Posted by mrgtb

You wasn't given a warning because IB want to get shut of people they see as losing them sales, and fast! I would say Wayne's a nice guy who will give you plenty of breathing space before banning, just like Steve also. But the truth of the matter is. IB are the ones pulling their puppet strings. If they say jump, they jump and do it their way - unless they don't want another pay cheque heading their way from IB in their letter box!

Sounds harsh, but that's the reality of it. Wayne and Steve may be holding the gun, but IB are pulling the trigger.

To put this succinctly as possible. You don't really have much of a clue of what happens behind the scenes. Policies can and do get rewritten because of feedback from the support staff. Discounts on expired licenses, extended support of vBulletin 3.8.X Owned Licenses through next year (even if already expired), the ability of leased licenses to upgrade to 4.0, and more are all because of the support staff looking out of the customer.

We do a lot more than simple support. We are your one and only line of defense. We are the ones that forward your feedback on. We are the ones that accept your abuse and still fight for you. We are however not monkeys with a gun blindly following orders.

You should really think twice about what you say. I know your having fun being on the "Hate vBulletin Bandwagon" but really, you're not making any friends. While I have compassion for Mark.B's and PTWiggens' situation and will discuss it in our daily teleconference today, it doesn't extend to all customers.

[mrgtb]

Well you only have to look Wayne at how easy people are getting banned now unlike before. In the past two weeks from what I've seen, 3 banning's have taken place: "TECK, Mark.B, and ptwiggens", there could be more I've missed. In my time at vBulletin I've never seen 3 people get banned in such a short space of time as that. A clear sign really that we don't need to know what's going on behind the scene fully, to see what's changes IB are forcing on you as staff moderating the forums.


Even Steve Machol posted an announcement recently saying that moderation was being step-up a gear. Admitted publicly on vBulletin that IB are intent of getting rid of posts that complain too much in manner they don't like, and feel may effect sales negatively.

I'm not disputing that there are times when you may defend us, or even some decisions made. But you know as well as me Wayne that the final decision making is done by IB. They have the last say regardless of what you think. Your an employee for them, which means your no different from me when I'm at work. If I get told to do a job I don't want to do, I still have to do it.

[ptwiggens]

Originally Posted by Wayne Luke

You should really think twice about what you say. I know your having fun being on the "Hate vBulletin Bandwagon" but really, you're not making any friends. While I have compassion for Mark.B's and PTWiggens' situation and will discuss it in our daily teleconference today, it doesn't extend to all customers.

Thank you, I truly appreciate that. If my ban is removed, I will let bygones be bygones and only post about technical support issues.

[Mark.B]

Originally Posted by ptwiggens

Thank you, I truly appreciate that. If my ban is removed, I will let bygones be bygones and only post about technical support issues.

Me too.

Whilst it's great to be wise after the event, I've been too harshly critical of the company, and have actually acted like a pillock at times.

The staff have a hard enough job at the moment and really I should have been more supportive of them, even if I didn't necessarily support all the changes.

It's not as if I would benefit if the company became unsuccessful. I'd rather they do really well and make a ton of cash, that way there's more to invest in development.

Whilst I had valid concerns I probably jumped on a bandwagon a bit more than I should have, and whilst I was never rude to the staff, I should have perhaps been more supportive of their predicament. It can be like a bear pit in there.

I've been ill and off work two weeks as well (back today). Not an excuse but it probably made me grumpier than I should be!

Wise after the event? Sure. I'll take that criticism on the chin.