vBulletin Nightmare

[banger]

Originally Posted by Gordie

Well if what the lawyer blogger said was correct in his article, then it sounds like one of the vBulletin employees posted a message on the official forums somewhere, which in effect said that the original intention wasn't to differentiate between the two camps of customers, namely those with expired licenses and those with active ones. The original intention was for them to both be able to upgrade at the same price.That opens up a whole new set of questions about why Ray was telling people to make sure their licenses were up to date.This entire version 4.0 deal is nothing less than one giant debacle.

You must mean this article - vBulletin 4 Forum - The Upgrade Dispute | The Law Professor

I think what the article says is that IB screwed up on many levels. Seems IB intended the $130 offer only go to customers who have the maintenance active. The IB mailing list isnt programmed to tell the difference between a person that has a license without active maintenance and a person with active maintenance so EVERYBODY with a license got the presale. And the funny thing is the message seemed to read that anyone with a license should get the 130 presale offer. They didnt come clean and then the article describes how they decided to get cute for people with not current maintenance

[Been Told]

Originally Posted by Webmist

I won't go either way as I can probably debate both sides. Yes what the company did was not very well thought out. But to quote you if I advise you to go buy Windows Vista, will you.

Well, you're not Bill Gates. It was Ray Morgan that advised me to do this, when I asked him, what would be wiser in terms of finance because I'm not that wealthy. And he went did a number on me.

Of course, now I know not to trust them again. But I didn't then. I had this strange idea that satisfied customers, who are willing to support the company long term, were more important than a short-term sale. But now I know better.

Ray advised you wrong and should be held accountable.

Like that's ever gonna happen.

All I wish to tell you is don't take advise from any representative of any company you purchase products from. You find their customers and talk to them. Even the disgruntled ones. Then it's 'your' decision and only you are responsible for that.

You know, in the past when I made decisions to trust people that are a bit higher up the chain, I was right in those decisions...
With IB I was wrong, because I didn't know about the lack of customer relations in their business plan. Maybe it's too expensive.
Shame really, because with Steve and Wayne they have two very, very competent customer support agents.
Too bad they are getting humped like the rest of us.

Anyway - now that I know the MO of IB, I know not to trust them anymore.

[LegolasTheElf]

Originally Posted by ruiner

Customers are entitled to give feedback on poor service practices, that's why they have a "Licensed Customers Feedback" forum that is private from the public. If they want to silence you, it's because they have something to hide and can't respond back with any reasonable explanation. So all they do is hide you in a corner... Very childish behaviour.

I was banned because I suggested that what they were doing might have a legal cause-of-action (Detrimental Reliance). Amusingly, I found the old post from the vB Admin area when they (whoops) opened it to the public. In there, they mention that one of their big challenges will be to convince people that the change is good for them (one cost per major license version) as opposed to the way they've always told people the license would work. They, themselves, admit that people relied on the "$40 per year" to renew the software, and that they need to handle it carefully to avoid what's happening right now. Guess they didn't do a great job!

I was actually one of the people interviewed for the Register follow-up article. I can tell you that my ban caused me to lose access to vb.org (I posted a screenshot of the proof on the register's site in the comment section of the story). They still haven't reversed the ban.

[Webmist]

Yes I agree it is. However be clear in how you word it. An 'upgrade' offer is different than the renewal. They have stated that your license if it's current at the time of release for vb4 will extend to the forum software. At that time, when it expires you will be subject to whatever pricing is at that time.

[Gordie]

Originally Posted by banger

You must mean this article - vBulletin 4 Forum - The Upgrade Dispute | The Law Professor

I think what the article says is that IB screwed up on many levels. Seems IB intended the $130 offer only go to customers who have the maintenance active. The IB mailing list isnt programmed to tell the difference between a person that has a license without active maintenance and a person with active maintenance so EVERYBODY with a license got the presale. And the funny thing is the message seemed to read that anyone with a license should get the 130 presale offer. They didnt come clean and then the article describes how they decided to get cute for people with not current maintenance

Hi Banger,

Yes that's the article.

The comment that he referenced can be taken two ways as I read it.

Here is the quote from the article...

Actually, the system was written so that it doesn’t make any differentiation between active or inactive licenses. Why we don’t know. You can sure it will be changed before the next big promotion though.

So what I take from that comment by the vBulletin employee is, that either they (vBulletin) didn't plan to differentiate between the two camps, those being ones with expired maintenance agreements and those with active ones, or they did plan to diiferentiate and just plain screwed up by sending the message through a system that didn't differentiate between the two.

[banger]

Originally Posted by Gordie

Hi Banger,

Yes that's the article.
-----------------------
So what I take from that comment by the vBulletin employee is, that either they (vBulletin) didn't plan to differentiate between the two camps, those being ones with expired maintenance agreements and those with active ones, or they did plan to diiferentiate and just plain screwed up by sending the message through a system that didn't differentiate between the two.

Remember that this is a licensing change and the system may have been written originally not to differentiate the two becuase it wasn't important to them at the time. Well... it is now!

[Mark.B]

Originally Posted by Gordie

No offense, but your view point over the last few weeks, has gone from one extreme to now the other. At first, you were one of the most vocal critics on the official forums, as well as elsewhere and now it seems like you've become the biggest vBulletin 4.0, Internet Brands cheerleader.

At the end of the day, it goes without saying that you're entitled to do and think what you like, as are all of us, but I don't think your current position of "I spoke to Ray and now everything is wonderful", is any more realistic than your old point of view was, where you thought that everything was a complete disaster. The truth actually lies somewhere in between those two points of view.

Maybe it's just me, but it seems like when you got banned from the official support forums and then also lost access to software updates etc., and to .org, that you kinda sat there going, oh S**T what am I going to do now? And that appears to have put you into a vulnerable position which has allowed you to be manipulated by Internet Brands management.

I don't think I've ever said that everything is wonderful.

My previous position was that a lot was wrong, and I certainly believed that with some passion. Some of it was right, some not.

They should not have banned me from vb.org. The forum ban - well my points were valid, but the way i was expressing them was probably over the top.

Wayne sorted my vb.org access out, that was going to be the end of it, but I made an approach to the company and we sorted it all out.

What I now see is the company trying to put right some of the recent mistakes, the beta announcement being the biggest of them. Therefore I'm happy to give them the benefit of the doubt, because I think vb4 is starting to look very promising.

But "everything's wonderful"? NO, I've never said that. Some customers have genuine unresolved issues, but I'm no longer fighting other people's battles. My own issues are resolved.

[Mark.B]

Originally Posted by Been Told

Show me one forum software that has this kind of licensing policy

Well, there are only two that have ANY kind of licensing policy.

[Sunsettommy]

Do I understand correctly that IB/Jelsoft did not sent out e-mails about their special pre order offers to their customers?

That it was not sent out at least a month ago?

[banger]

Originally Posted by Sunsettommy

Do I understand correctly that IB/Jelsoft did not sent out e-mails about their special pre order offers to their customers?

That it was not sent out at least a month ago?

Read the article and all will become clear... yes they did but it was buy it right now or you're toast.

[Gordie]

Originally Posted by Mark.B

Well, there are only two that have ANY kind of licensing policy.

That's not true. There are numerous other paid forum solutions out there beyond vBulletin and IPB.

This one is excellent. Main Index - FusionBB Community - Powered by FusionBB

How about the former market leader ubb? http://www.ubbcentral.com oh how the mighty have fallen.

As far as your other reply goes, I myself haven't seen any recent improvement with respect to vBulletin - if you have and you feel differently, then more power to you.

I think we're coming to the point in this debate, where there are some people who have now staked their positions solidly in one camp or the other. And for those people, many of them will unfortunately blindly defend their positions regardless of whatever happens or transpires going forward.

I really have to wonder about some of the people who are seemingly, continuing, to blindly defend the actions of Internet Brands though. I don't know how many people it will take leaving, how much negative media coverage, how much the stock needs to decline, or quite frankly, what it will take for some of these people to finally realize that things are at a point of crises with Internet Brands.

Internet Brands and their paid spokes-people can spin things as much and however they wish, with comments like there are only a few vocal members who are upset and causing issues, we've had record sales, etc. etc. The truth is that, it's all nothing more than spin. If that's what they actually think then that's wishful thinking on their part because not everyone who is upset is posting on vBulletin's official forums.

I don't think IPB had to go out and hire extra help with all the new signups and migrations to their software, because of just a few unhappy vBulletin customers moving to them. I for one, haven't posted a single message on the official support forums for months and don't plan to. Take a look at the quality of many of the people who have expressed concern and dismay at what is transpiring at vBulletin. There are Developers, former developers, lawyers, media members, bloggers, hackers, coders, customizers as well as numerous customers who are all questioning what the hell is going on.

I believe this is one of those instances, where as much as Internet Brands might think they are winning the battle, in the end, they will find out that their short sightedness and miscalculations ultimately have cost them the war.

[KearaO]

Absolutely terrific post, Gordie. Bravo!

Originally Posted by Gordie

That's not true. There are numerous other paid forum solutions out there beyond vBulletin and IPB.

This one is excellent. Main Index - FusionBB Community - Powered by FusionBB

How about the former market leader ubb? http://www.ubbcentral.com oh how the mighty have fallen.

As far as your other reply goes, I myself haven't seen any recent improvement with respect to vBulletin - if you have and you feel differently, then more power to you.

I think we're coming to the point in this debate, where there are some people who have now staked their positions solidly in one camp or the other. And for those people, many of them will unfortunately blindly defend their positions regardless of whatever happens or transpires going forward.

I really have to wonder about some of the people who are seemingly, continuing, to blindly defend the actions of Internet Brands though. I don't know how many people, how much negative media coverage, how much the stock needs to decline, or quite frankly, what it will take for some of these people to finally realize that things are at a point of crises with Internet Brands.

Internet Brands and their paid spokes-people can spin things as much and however they wish, with comments like there are only a few vocal members who are upset and causing issues etc. etc. The truth is that is nothing more than spin. If that's what they actually think then that's wishful thinking on their part because not everyone who is upset is posting on vBulletin's official forums.

I don't think IPB had to go out and hire extra help with all the new signups and migrations to their software, because of just a few unhappy customers. I for one, haven't posted a single message on the official support forums for months and don't plan to. Take a look at the quality of many of the people who have expressed concern and dismay at what is transpiring at vBulletin. There are Developers, former developers, lawyers, media members, bloggers, hackers, coders, customizers as well as numerous customers who are all questioning what the hell is going on.

I believe this is one of those instances, where as much as Internet Brands might think they are winning the battle, in the end, they will find out that their short sightedness and miscalculations ultimately have cost them the war.

[KearaO]

Originally Posted by Gordie

* * *
I believe this is one of those instances, where as much as Internet Brands might think they are winning the battle, in the end, they will find out that their short sightedness and miscalculations ultimately have cost them the war.

I find myself hoping this is the case. Even though I've now paid $310 for their software in less than twelve months, they have dealt so rottenly with so many people, that I'm sorry to say that I find myself hoping that they will fail.

Of course, I hope that it will happen slowly enough so that people whose livelihoods depend on them will be able to find safe harbor elsewhere. But I'm shocked at the extent of my own deep anger toward this highly dishonest company.

[banger]

Originally Posted by Gordie

I believe this is one of those instances, where as much as Internet Brands might think they are winning the battle, in the end, they will find out that their short sightedness and miscalculations ultimately have cost them the war.

"The vBulletin 4.0 series is the best product we've ever brought to market, and we're blown away by the level of sales activity"

This statement makes me laugh my @$$ off. They haven't done anything yet - the product isn't even fully beta and these jokers are blown away by the level of sales activity???? Every customer was forced to buy a license during this 2 week hold up and wants to punch these self congratulating back slapping jerks right in the mouth.

I have had some forums for a long time. I can't use them any more without have serious contempt for these people and their smug arrogance, rubbing it in our faces.

[Gordie]

Originally Posted by banger

"The vBulletin 4.0 series is the best product we've ever brought to market, and we're blown away by the level of sales activity"

This statement makes me laugh my @$$ off. They haven't done anything yet - the product isn't even fully beta and these jokers are blown away by the level of sales activity???? Every customer was forced to buy a license during this 2 week hold up and wants to punch these self congratulating back slapping jerks right in the mouth.

I have had some forums for a long time. I can't use them any more without have serious contempt for these people and their smug arrogance, rubbing it in our faces.

Well in effect what they've done is mortgage their future.

And what I mean by that, is that what used to happen (as you all know) is that customers would renew their licenses either yearly or as they needed too. So I'm sure that IB would get a fairly regular stream of revenue coming in each month, as members renewed their yearly access or restored it needing access to updates or what-have-you. And then of course there are new license sales as well.

With the recent changes and this promotion, what IB have effectively done is moved every current customer's renewal date up to the past couple of weeks. And they've also increased the renewal price dramatically. But I would imagine that they are about do go through a long dry spell now as the renewals will be minimal going forward I would think.

And for those who chose not to renew like myself, those customers will have very little, if no finanical incentive to stay with vBulletin. In essense, they will be free agents. The largest disincentive and obstacle that customers will now have to moving to other software won't be financial, it will obviously be the conversion process.

Given all that, it will be interesting to see how IB does finacially in 2010. It could be a really, really long year with respect to the vBulletin aspect of their business. I would think the true measure of how these changes went, won't come until the end of the fiscal year 2010 when the results are in.

It almost makes you wonder if IB will get desperate during Q4 2010 and magically release version 5.0 in an effort to cash in once again and save their year.